OK ... need some honest answers here folks. 3 weeks to go to fair and pigs are on 9 grams of paylean right now. My past experience with paylean hasn't always been good. A couple pigs every year get so stiff they scream in pain trying to walk and that's at the 9 gram level. But ... I have suspicions that in order to be more competitive in the showring we need to feed a higher level than 9 in order to get those pigs as wide and shapely as possible. So ... the question is how much more? What level do you all feed? Is there some additive I can also feed that will help minimize the negative effects of the paylean (i.e. dry hoofs, stiff joints, etc.)?
We have 5 kids that show pigs so have a group of 10-15 show pigs we are trying to fine tune. I know its harder to get pigs perfect when in groups and on a self-feeder but we try to do the best we can in separating those that need different diets as pen space allows and time permits. Pigs are currently weighing 200-240 right now. We want them to finish out in the 260-290 range. As we get closer to entry day, we separate those who need to slow down on weight gain.
Pigs are currently on a 17.5% Protein Showrite 10.0 grind mix with 70 lbs of CLE (liquid fat) per ton as a base feed. Last Friday, I added 50 lbs of oats (expand the rib shape) along with 25 lbs of milk replacer (eat more) plus paylean to achieve the 9 gram per ton level to 250 pounds of the
base grind.
We also use Moorfat as a fat supplement to the CLE. Some need weight gain, some need cover. I don't want to jeopardize weight gain for cover ... so how much should I feed per day? I've been told to play around with the paylean level too. Feed 18 grams for a couple days then back to 9 grams for 2 days etc.
I know this is long but what are your thoughts on all this? Are we totally off base or headed somewhat in the right direction?
Paylean & Fat -- how much is actually fed or needed? KG
Ok, I'm going to give you my honest opinion but you need to realize up front that I'm not trying to step on anyones toes. But you asked for honest answers.
The truth is that Paylean doesn't make pigs unsound and scream in pain. It takes unsound pigs and makes them much much worse. The best advice I can give you is pick pigs that are sound and have muscle. Enough muscle that you don't have to rely on Paylean.
Yes there are folks that feed much higher levels of Paylean. That doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean that it will work for you .
As far as growth rate and cover, they go hand in hand especially on a self feeder. And that is another area you are getting beat at...the self feeder.
People that hand feed separately have a huge advantage and you are at a huge disadvantage. I understand you do what you can, but by self feeding in large groups you are getting beat before you get to the show. I'm just being honest.
You are getting beat by highly fitted show pigs. When your pigs are treated more like commercial pigs.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just if you continue self feeding in groups you need to accept the truth.
The truth is that Paylean doesn't make pigs unsound and scream in pain. It takes unsound pigs and makes them much much worse. The best advice I can give you is pick pigs that are sound and have muscle. Enough muscle that you don't have to rely on Paylean.
Yes there are folks that feed much higher levels of Paylean. That doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean that it will work for you .
As far as growth rate and cover, they go hand in hand especially on a self feeder. And that is another area you are getting beat at...the self feeder.
People that hand feed separately have a huge advantage and you are at a huge disadvantage. I understand you do what you can, but by self feeding in large groups you are getting beat before you get to the show. I'm just being honest.
You are getting beat by highly fitted show pigs. When your pigs are treated more like commercial pigs.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just if you continue self feeding in groups you need to accept the truth.
Dr. Kevin Burgoon
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
-
IndianaMom
- Showpig Specialist
- Posts: 367
- Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 7:00 pm
Totally agree with KGB. You have to fine tune these pigs to the max to be competitive. No two pigs are alike and their nutrition requirements will be different. If you don't separate them you will be unable to address those differences.
Good luck with your project. You will never know all you need to know and learning new things will make you more competitive.
Good luck with your project. You will never know all you need to know and learning new things will make you more competitive.
Ok, I'm going to give you my honest opinion but you need to realize up front that I'm not trying to step on anyones toes. But you asked for honest answers.
The truth is that Paylean doesn't make pigs unsound and scream in pain. It takes unsound pigs and makes them much much worse. The best advice I can give you is pick pigs that are sound and have muscle. Enough muscle that you don't have to rely on Paylean.
Yes there are folks that feed much higher levels of Paylean. That doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean that it will work for you .
As far as growth rate and cover, they go hand in hand especially on a self feeder. And that is another area you are getting beat at...the self feeder.
People that hand feed separately have a huge advantage and you are at a huge disadvantage. I understand you do what you can, but by self feeding in large groups you are getting beat before you get to the show. I'm just being honest.
You are getting beat by highly fitted show pigs. When your pigs are treated more like commercial pigs.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just if you continue self feeding in groups you need to accept the truth.
The truth is that Paylean doesn't make pigs unsound and scream in pain. It takes unsound pigs and makes them much much worse. The best advice I can give you is pick pigs that are sound and have muscle. Enough muscle that you don't have to rely on Paylean.
Yes there are folks that feed much higher levels of Paylean. That doesn't mean it's right, and it doesn't mean that it will work for you .
As far as growth rate and cover, they go hand in hand especially on a self feeder. And that is another area you are getting beat at...the self feeder.
People that hand feed separately have a huge advantage and you are at a huge disadvantage. I understand you do what you can, but by self feeding in large groups you are getting beat before you get to the show. I'm just being honest.
You are getting beat by highly fitted show pigs. When your pigs are treated more like commercial pigs.
I'm not saying it's right or wrong, just if you continue self feeding in groups you need to accept the truth.
Dr. Kevin Burgoon
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
There is a reason why they moved it to a 9 gm leval and it is off label to give more. You talk about having lame pigs so why risk it? My kids were showing when it was at an 18 gm leval and there were alot of lame pigs. There was also alot of muscle at the time so that was probably a reason for the lameness also. I also thought that it was for the last 21 days but I can't find that on the label. Kevin can you clear that up as to how many days? Thanks Another note to me, it also tells the kids to cheat if you give more than what your supposed to. I would rather win honestly than win at cheating. We recently did really well at our county fair with both of our pigs that were on Honor finisher and some champion drive. We also did really good at a jackpot that I thought that we were going to be laughed at because our pigs were not fed as jackpot pigs. They were from our litter and they were beautiful. Wish I had a gilt to retain from that litter but she only had one girl and the rest boys. Oh well I am striving to get even better ones.
OK ... so the self feeder is not a good thing. But is there a particular age or weight that a pig can be fed via self-feeder before going to hand feeding?
I'm not good enough to look at a growing pig and determine the exact nutritional requirements it needs. What physical charecteristics indicate a pig is unsound at 70-90 lbs when we pick them out? Are you saying that a good feed sales person should come to our farm and tell us exactly how or what to feed each pig to achieve its max potential?
What would be the most important thing we could or should do in the next 3 weeks to get these pigs finished? Nobody touched on the feed stuffs I'm feeding ... am I on the right track in that respect or totally out in left field? I've just about gone broke feeding this last bunch of showpigs and feeling very frustrated at not knowing if I'm doing the right thing or not.
I'm not good enough to look at a growing pig and determine the exact nutritional requirements it needs. What physical charecteristics indicate a pig is unsound at 70-90 lbs when we pick them out? Are you saying that a good feed sales person should come to our farm and tell us exactly how or what to feed each pig to achieve its max potential?
What would be the most important thing we could or should do in the next 3 weeks to get these pigs finished? Nobody touched on the feed stuffs I'm feeding ... am I on the right track in that respect or totally out in left field? I've just about gone broke feeding this last bunch of showpigs and feeling very frustrated at not knowing if I'm doing the right thing or not.
Ericka: the legal claim for Paylean is for the last 45 - 90 lbs of weigh gain. The 21 days is my recommendation to minimize the side effects that can accompany Paylean.
Self feeders are very convenient...and we use them...up to a point. The pig needs to grow normally at least to about 150 lbs to have adequate muscle and skeletal development. We usually use a self feeder up to that point, and then begin hand feeding.
Up to 150 lbs, there isn't much difference in growth and development where the pig goes to a feeder and gets it himself, or you give it to him twice daily. So, a self feeder until then is fine. And really it's probably fine after that as long as the pig is on track (your track...what you want). The problem lies when you need to stop, slow down, take a left or right turn (muscle, fill, cover, etc....) you can't do it with a self feeder. And when you remove the self feeder and begin hand feeding there is an adjustment period for the pig, especially if you are changing feeds and or supplements. So, the pig struggles to consume what you want it to. If you have been hand feeding (not in a black pan on the ground...in a hanging feeder on a hog panel) for sometime then when you need to make adjustments the pig doesn't struggle eating.
At time evaluating soundness in very young pigs is a challenge. But in general, pigs need to set their feet down squarely to the ground on all 4. Look at the toes and make sure they are the same length (not one shorter than the other...inside vs outside toes). They need to have some flex from the knee to the pastern and pastern to the ground on the front end. They also need the same from hock to pastern and pastern to ground on the hind legs.
I think the pain you have seen in pigs fed Paylean comes from being too straight from their hip through the hock to the ground on the rear end. Being straight, causes a pressure point in the joints and when fed Paylean it is aggravated and causes inflammation and soreness. That is why I said Paylean doesn't make pigs unsound, it causes unsound pigs to be much worse.
The gait and stride needs to be fluid, like an athlete or dancer if that makes sense to you. For lack of a better description, take the show "So you think you can dance". The finalist are graceful, fluid, and appear effortless. Then take me, on a good day I can walk a fairly straight line from the house to the pick up. But, that is where my gracefullness ends. The phrase "stumble out the door" applies here.
Probably a bad analogy, but hopefully you see what I mean. Pigs to set the feet to the ground with all toes pointing forward, not inward or out to the side. They need to be as wide up front through their chest floor as they are all the way back through their body cavity to the base of their hams. Ideally, the pig foot prints would be exactly as wide apart up front as they are between the hind legs.
They also need to take a fairly big step up front, and not a short choppy step. The shorter and choppier the step, usually the straighter the angle of the shoulder. And this causes increasing movement problems as the pig grows gets bigger, and puts on more weight.
For the products you are feeding, I omitted them in the first post intentionally. I am the nutritionist for HONOR Show Chow, and those are the products I am familiar with as I formulated them and I feed them. I have not fed Show Rite.
What needs to be done in your pigs in the next 21 days depends upon what you are seeing in the pig. I maintain that a good feeder is one that knows what a good pig looks like in the show ring and uses the feed products available to him to get the pig there. That is does it need more muscle? More cover (body fat)?, More fill? Lower rear flank? More rib shape? All of these can be acquired by using the right product for the job...with the exception of rib shape. If you have a pig that has some curvature of rib, then when you feed and it is full, the rib shape is there. Usually it's a matter of how much we are feeding per day. (When we limit weight gain we don't feed much total daily feed and the rib can appear flatter than normal). But, if you have a pig that is just flat sided, all the fancy feed in the world will not change the shape of it's rib cage. You need to select for that when you pick the pigs.
But, the other things mentioned can be attained by HAND feeding and using the right feed products. Over simplified, protein builds muscle and energy fuels growth. Remember that a good portion of that growth is muscle. For every metabolic process there is a caloric cost. Energy fuels everything.
This post is way long. I apologize.
Self feeders are very convenient...and we use them...up to a point. The pig needs to grow normally at least to about 150 lbs to have adequate muscle and skeletal development. We usually use a self feeder up to that point, and then begin hand feeding.
Up to 150 lbs, there isn't much difference in growth and development where the pig goes to a feeder and gets it himself, or you give it to him twice daily. So, a self feeder until then is fine. And really it's probably fine after that as long as the pig is on track (your track...what you want). The problem lies when you need to stop, slow down, take a left or right turn (muscle, fill, cover, etc....) you can't do it with a self feeder. And when you remove the self feeder and begin hand feeding there is an adjustment period for the pig, especially if you are changing feeds and or supplements. So, the pig struggles to consume what you want it to. If you have been hand feeding (not in a black pan on the ground...in a hanging feeder on a hog panel) for sometime then when you need to make adjustments the pig doesn't struggle eating.
At time evaluating soundness in very young pigs is a challenge. But in general, pigs need to set their feet down squarely to the ground on all 4. Look at the toes and make sure they are the same length (not one shorter than the other...inside vs outside toes). They need to have some flex from the knee to the pastern and pastern to the ground on the front end. They also need the same from hock to pastern and pastern to ground on the hind legs.
I think the pain you have seen in pigs fed Paylean comes from being too straight from their hip through the hock to the ground on the rear end. Being straight, causes a pressure point in the joints and when fed Paylean it is aggravated and causes inflammation and soreness. That is why I said Paylean doesn't make pigs unsound, it causes unsound pigs to be much worse.
The gait and stride needs to be fluid, like an athlete or dancer if that makes sense to you. For lack of a better description, take the show "So you think you can dance". The finalist are graceful, fluid, and appear effortless. Then take me, on a good day I can walk a fairly straight line from the house to the pick up. But, that is where my gracefullness ends. The phrase "stumble out the door" applies here.
Probably a bad analogy, but hopefully you see what I mean. Pigs to set the feet to the ground with all toes pointing forward, not inward or out to the side. They need to be as wide up front through their chest floor as they are all the way back through their body cavity to the base of their hams. Ideally, the pig foot prints would be exactly as wide apart up front as they are between the hind legs.
They also need to take a fairly big step up front, and not a short choppy step. The shorter and choppier the step, usually the straighter the angle of the shoulder. And this causes increasing movement problems as the pig grows gets bigger, and puts on more weight.
For the products you are feeding, I omitted them in the first post intentionally. I am the nutritionist for HONOR Show Chow, and those are the products I am familiar with as I formulated them and I feed them. I have not fed Show Rite.
What needs to be done in your pigs in the next 21 days depends upon what you are seeing in the pig. I maintain that a good feeder is one that knows what a good pig looks like in the show ring and uses the feed products available to him to get the pig there. That is does it need more muscle? More cover (body fat)?, More fill? Lower rear flank? More rib shape? All of these can be acquired by using the right product for the job...with the exception of rib shape. If you have a pig that has some curvature of rib, then when you feed and it is full, the rib shape is there. Usually it's a matter of how much we are feeding per day. (When we limit weight gain we don't feed much total daily feed and the rib can appear flatter than normal). But, if you have a pig that is just flat sided, all the fancy feed in the world will not change the shape of it's rib cage. You need to select for that when you pick the pigs.
But, the other things mentioned can be attained by HAND feeding and using the right feed products. Over simplified, protein builds muscle and energy fuels growth. Remember that a good portion of that growth is muscle. For every metabolic process there is a caloric cost. Energy fuels everything.
This post is way long. I apologize.
Dr. Kevin Burgoon
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
-
osage101170
- Boar Stud
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:00 pm
- Location: Arkansas
The post is not too long at all and I appreciate it also. 
Marmar don't be tempted to feed to much paylean thinking it will move you into the winners circle. It's just going to disappoint you. We over fed paylean unintentially a couple years ago due to having more than one pig per pen and lost the Grand or Reserve when she turned blue and melted down in the ring. She ended up 3rd with a lecture from the judge about paylean!! She had one good litter and then would not rebreed. Don't know if it's true, but, an experienced breeder here told me I messed up her kidneys and that's why she would not continue to breed. I now either have the pigs seperated or take the time to mix the paylean in lard, roll it in powdered sugar, and feed it to each pig individually. They can wolf down a powdered sugar paylean lard ball in about 5 seconds!!!
As far as feeding, experience and work will make you a good feeder. Learn what works and work to get your pigs seperated where you can control their feed. For us and others here in our little bitty neck of the woods the biggest problem I've seen with feeding is waiting to late to adjust and then trying to go to extremes to make up for it. Everyone knows pigs need to be fat, but, I see people at the fair adding a pound of Moorfat to try to fatten them. They should have started weeks early than they did. Have a plan and make sure everything is in place to execute it.
Learn now win later!!!!!
Good luck!!!!
Marmar don't be tempted to feed to much paylean thinking it will move you into the winners circle. It's just going to disappoint you. We over fed paylean unintentially a couple years ago due to having more than one pig per pen and lost the Grand or Reserve when she turned blue and melted down in the ring. She ended up 3rd with a lecture from the judge about paylean!! She had one good litter and then would not rebreed. Don't know if it's true, but, an experienced breeder here told me I messed up her kidneys and that's why she would not continue to breed. I now either have the pigs seperated or take the time to mix the paylean in lard, roll it in powdered sugar, and feed it to each pig individually. They can wolf down a powdered sugar paylean lard ball in about 5 seconds!!!
As far as feeding, experience and work will make you a good feeder. Learn what works and work to get your pigs seperated where you can control their feed. For us and others here in our little bitty neck of the woods the biggest problem I've seen with feeding is waiting to late to adjust and then trying to go to extremes to make up for it. Everyone knows pigs need to be fat, but, I see people at the fair adding a pound of Moorfat to try to fatten them. They should have started weeks early than they did. Have a plan and make sure everything is in place to execute it.
Learn now win later!!!!!
Good luck!!!!
Ours (High Octane Showpig Paylean Premix) now comes in a 15 lb bucket.
Dr. Kevin Burgoon
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
This web site is great even thought I get yelled at by the wife for being on here from the time i get home from work until the time I go to bed ha!
I have learn alot. My question is you talked about fat/cover. When should I start adding moorfat to the pigs that need it? I think i understand that paylean adds musel or helps fill the musel up,and you start it a 21 days out. but when do I need to start the moorfat for the two pigs i have that needs more cover?
I have learn alot. My question is you talked about fat/cover. When should I start adding moorfat to the pigs that need it? I think i understand that paylean adds musel or helps fill the musel up,and you start it a 21 days out. but when do I need to start the moorfat for the two pigs i have that needs more cover?
-
osage101170
- Boar Stud
- Posts: 680
- Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:00 pm
- Location: Arkansas
It depends on the pig I'm sure. I always start adding at least a couple ounces to all our pigs at 60 days. I want them to be used to the taste. I then increase as needed depending on the pig, but, I never exceed the recommended amount. My theory is it's better to put the fat on early. To me it's easier to loose a little, or hold, than gain alot in the last few days.
I've noticed several times at the fair that people are feeding what looks to be a pound of MoorFat with 1/2 a pound of feed to a pig that needs to put on alot of cover!!!! If you waited that long it just isn't going to work!!!
Good luck!!!!
I've noticed several times at the fair that people are feeding what looks to be a pound of MoorFat with 1/2 a pound of feed to a pig that needs to put on alot of cover!!!! If you waited that long it just isn't going to work!!!
Good luck!!!!
That is good advice.
The pig's growth curve is important as well. We still have pigs that are programmed to stay lean at heavy weights. In these cases you need to start early (the more help you need in a given area, the sooner you need to start working on it).
Accumulation of fat comes from exceeding the requirement for energy. If you need them softer or fatter at light weights:
1) it may well be very very hard to do
2) you probably need to be feeding alot of fat....the pig will tell you when you've gone to far. At that point, the pig will either eat much less per day, or it's stools will be very loose...or both
The pig's growth curve is important as well. We still have pigs that are programmed to stay lean at heavy weights. In these cases you need to start early (the more help you need in a given area, the sooner you need to start working on it).
Accumulation of fat comes from exceeding the requirement for energy. If you need them softer or fatter at light weights:
1) it may well be very very hard to do
2) you probably need to be feeding alot of fat....the pig will tell you when you've gone to far. At that point, the pig will either eat much less per day, or it's stools will be very loose...or both
Dr. Kevin Burgoon
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27
Purina® Honor® Show Chow® Nutritionist
http://www.PurinaMills.com/Show-Feed
http://www.facebook.com/HonorShowChow
http://www.twitter.com/HonorShowChow
If you have the power to do good for someone...use it. Proverbs 3:27