c-section for pigs

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mathemjm
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c-section for pigs

Post by mathemjm » Mon Feb 03, 2014 8:32 pm

I had a disaster this last weekend with a crossbred gilt that was to tight to pull babies out of she was moderate in frame and had no red flags that would have led me to believe she would have problems otherwise I wouldn't have bred her. None the less I live in an area with over 30 vets in the yellow pages none of which will make a farm call or see a pig most things I have been able to figure out through research and individuals on this website. I knew those pigs were not going to come out and extreme measures needed to be taken. I could not for the life of me get a vet to even come take a look not even offering extra pay with low expectations of success I ended up getting ahold of a reputable breeder in my area and we ended up losing the gilt and managed to save 1 pig out of the 6, I know this is a rare scenario but in the future what is the protocol for dosing on anestia on pigs this seemed to be the hang up most vets had not so much the procedure.

mtbkmom
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Re: c-section for pigs

Post by mtbkmom » Mon Feb 03, 2014 9:38 pm

Did you use a snare or just your hand? You would think that you could find a vet who would be willing to help out,line up some agricultural resources/professional peers ahead of time. I would think it could come lose to unethical to practice large animal vet medicine and refuse to help an Animal in distress. I would write the credentials board of these large animal vets and report their refusal to help. They may not be experts but they should have a book and a number to call.
"Your present circumstances don't determine where you can go; they merely determine where you start."--I Am Second.

mathemjm
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Re: c-section for pigs

Post by mathemjm » Mon Feb 03, 2014 10:12 pm

tried snare, hands twine nothing would work have gone to different vets in the past for help getting antibiotics even and there reply is we have to see the animal before we make a prescription and we don't see pigs very frustrating I have 1 that works with me a little but no farm calls have to take everything in not always an option with pigs

mtbkmom
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Re: c-section for pigs

Post by mtbkmom » Tue Feb 04, 2014 1:15 am

Oh but I bet they see cows and horses. They shouldn't even need to come and see....they should have Skype or facetime, the client puts their pig onto Skype and the vet can see them coughing their lungs out and at least initiates treatment and follow up if needed. Refusing treatment is abandoning care. There is more than one way to "SEE" an animal these days. I a so sure that everyitme a cow coughs they do not make the rancher bring it in to see it cough.

Our local vet was not at all comfortable with pigs. I brought him information from this forum (like the page on recommended meds/doses). He removed a testicle that was up in the belly after a quick conference with a swine vet we got him in touch with. He taught me how to suture an umbilical cord that got pulled off all the way up into the abd wall and was squirting aortic blood within minutes after birth so that the next time, I could try.....fat chance, but we are learning together.

This same mentality affected one of my buyers--went out one day and the gilt was standing on 3 legs, shaking and refusing to put wt on her rt front leg. No obvious boney deformity, could move it around, she just did not want to put weight on it. This was a Friday. Told them they had to bring her in to be treated and he had an opening the next Tuesday---is he nuts!!!! Said he wanted to rule out if it was a strain or fracture---well in the meantime he could have prescribed some dex/banamine and if it was still hurting by Tuesday he could probably figure it was something more than just a strain. Had the buyer get in touch with our vet which was way far away, but he came and got some Dex /Banamine--next morning putting on some weight and the next day ready to go....also advised 2 weeks deep bedding and making the pen smaller....the point is...how can a vet wait 5 days to see an animal that cannot bear weight.

Bottom line: I don't get how a large animal vet can pick and choose if and when they treat an animal in need of help.

Maybe what made some of the difference with us is that I spent some time sitting down with this vet, I found some swine vets in different parts of the country--name/number/web sites; and then he found some resources at Texas A&M to consult with. I had a really nasty left over stump from an umbilical cord and the wall did not appear to come together all the way. He took pictures, sent them to A&M and asked them what if anything should be done. It all worked out just fine this way.
"Your present circumstances don't determine where you can go; they merely determine where you start."--I Am Second.

DrAmy
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Re: c-section for pigs

Post by DrAmy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:22 am

I feel a bit timid as a vet to step into this post ranting about vet care, but I will attempt it anyway. First of all, there is no legal nor ethical obligation of a veterinarian to come see an animal. We have all had situations where we refuse to service a client for one reason or another. And I have often refused to provide services or help for people who ask me about dog, cat or horse issues since I know that I an not competent in these arenas. That said, if you find a vet around that would be willing to step outside their comfort zone and learn a little about pigs to help you, there are plenty of resources available. I believe that most of my swine vet colleagues would be willing to help another vet on pig issues - they just have to call.

As for your OB problem, it sounds like this could have been a C-section candidate. There are 2 options for a C-section - a radical gun and knife method and the survival method. I have many clients that have been trained to perform radical C-sections for various reasons. This sounds horrible but is actually a very viable option - particularly for sows that otherwise are likely not going to survive the farrowing process. After shooting the sow, you must cut quickly right above the underline in the flank area to expose the uterus and get pigs out before they die. You can save a lot of pigs this way. For the survival method, the procedure really is like any other animal - you just need to make multiple incisions into the uterus usually to get to all of the pigs. Again, if you find a willing vet to learn, all they have to do is call and ask a swine vet for help and most any of us would walk them through it and give them proper anesthetic protocols, etc.

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Re: c-section for pigs

Post by BigWig » Sat Jul 01, 2017 6:30 am

DrAmy wrote:I feel a bit timid as a vet to step into this post ranting about vet care, but I will attempt it anyway. First of all, there is no legal nor ethical obligation of a veterinarian to come see an animal. We have all had situations where we refuse to service a client for one reason or another. And I have often refused to provide services or help for people who ask me about dog, cat or horse issues since I know that I an not competent in these arenas. That said, if you find a vet around that would be willing to step outside their comfort zone and learn a little about pigs to help you, there are plenty of resources available. I believe that most of my swine vet colleagues would be willing to help another vet on pig issues - they just have to call.

As for your OB problem, it sounds like this could have been a C-section candidate. There are 2 options for a C-section - a radical gun and knife method and the survival method. I have many clients that have been trained to perform radical C-sections for various reasons. This sounds horrible but is actually a very viable option - particularly for sows that otherwise are likely not going to survive the farrowing process. After shooting the sow, you must cut quickly right above the underline in the flank area to expose the uterus and get pigs out before they die. You can save a lot of pigs this way. For the survival method, the procedure really is like any other animal - you just need to make multiple incisions into the uterus usually to get to all of the pigs. Again, if you find a willing vet to learn, all they have to do is call and ask a swine vet for help and most any of us would walk them through it and give them proper anesthetic protocols, etc.

We have a gilt that has been pushing since 11pm and the first baby is huge. What's the chances of a c-section being successful at 8am? Want to keep the sow alive too

mict71
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Re: c-section for pigs

Post by mict71 » Sun Jul 02, 2017 5:40 am

I realize this is probably too late to help you but with the experience I had with one last fall with that amount of time gone by the likelihood of the babies still being alive inside and her are very slim with the stress she's gone through over that amount of hours she probably would not survive the surgery. The one I had the 5th baby got stuck after an hour I called the vet because my hands are too big to reach into gilt she came out and spent an hour pulling that pig and two more hours pulling the next four with each Pig she pulled she was surprised that they were still alive the total labor was about 6 hours. I am one of the lucky ones who has a vet with experience because through her work and her own swine hobby.

buckibri
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Re: c-section for pigs

Post by buckibri » Sun Jul 02, 2017 9:51 am

I feel very bad for all individuals who face this as I have myself a few times. I am fortunate to have competent large animal vets in my area to assist in extreme circumstances.

A reality must be faced by those that choose to farrow showpigs in geographies with out professional help available that you have a good chance of losing animals.

If I didn't have professional help available I could not participate in this business.

I applaud dr Amy for openly discussing the "radical" process. While that is the first time I have heard that term used for this process I have been aware that many show pigs breeders follow that practice commonly. My ethics don't allow me to do that and probably not as competitive as others for that reason.

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