Feeding 4-H Market Pigs

shirlie · Post by **shirlie** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 12:22 pm

Ugh! Wrote a long rambling post only to lose it. We have three kids in 4-H in their second year. I mostly left feed issues up to hubby because was in FFA , had champion carcass pig and raised 100's of pigs in a sow to finish operation 20 + years ago. I started out knowing nothing at all about pigs but now read avidly trying to get to speed. Last year, being our first year, we bought ordinary but nice pigs. They did o.k. for just being ordinary pigs and being feed 14% pig grower. Classes were of 10 pigs each and we were in the top half with all and one pig got a second place. Hubby very happy with results because his eyes are mostly on the bottom line and the kids made a nice profit. This year we have MUCH nicer pigs. Our livestock saavy 4-H advisor (he judges smaller pig shows and is very competive) was quite impressed with this years pigs. He said it is obvious that the breeder is breeding for show and they are a HUGE improvement over last years pigs, lol. Anyhow we fed a starter feed with 20 percent protein, lysine 1.2% and the larger pigs (at least 125lb) have been eating 16% (lysine content isn't on the label) for about 23 days. They did have HUGE and ever increasing butts but the butts don't seem to be growing anymore and are looking a bit droopier now. The smaller pigs are eating their last bag of starter because we hadn't realized they gotten to 75 lbs already. Hubby so far has refused to buy show pig feed. He is more concerned with maintaining the bottom line so the kids can make a nice profit. Last year, the kids did come out nicely ahead. However, I am trying to convince him that the current plan is detrimental to the pigs meeting their genetic potential. Is there a top dressing product that we can use to bridge the gap more economically than feeding show pig feed? I am also interested in tips using on hand or easily obtained, reasonably priced products for different issues. Like feeding eggs and olive oil for skin and hair, cottonseed meal for reducing jowl fat on barrows (does that really work?) and etc. I would like to keep a list of such items. I know that giving plain yogurt can benefit pigs developing scours. We had a terrible problem initially reversed with oral penicillin. With they started to scour again, I gave yogurt and it cleared right up. One pig started to scour again later, more yogurt and no more problems in nearly a month. YEAH for yogurt! I do read about all the different products we can buy and am not opposed to buying what we can to maximize the pig's potential. However, we are not Fort Knox and with 4 pigs to feed (one per kid and an extra that hubby might show) we have to be very careful only to buy what will be the most economical per benefit recieved. Thanks so much for all constructive input.

SpotShowDad · Post by **SpotShowDad** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 2:25 pm

Good Luck and welcome to the world of feeding show pigs on a budget. The most economical way we have found to feed show pigs on a quality feed is a grind and mix formulated feed. A supplement or base mix that you mix with corn and soybean meal. All most all of the feed companies have something in this regard. Some more popular than others. We personally use the showrite show pig 10.0 base and have pretty good success.

There are literally dozens of top dresses out there but you are just throwing good money after bad if your not starting with the right base feed. I'm not saying they can't be fed on a regular finishing diet but you still won't get the same results as the "show pig" feeds. The show pig diets have a lot of extras that you won't get out of commercial supplements.

As far as all the "tricks" with eggs and cake mixes and such I've never known too many to have much success. Start with a good feed and go from there.

The one problem I see with the program you describe was probably too fast of a drop in protein. Dropping these type of pigs to 16% protein too fast will sacrifice some muscle shape and expression. Normally we drop from a 20% to an 18% at about 75 lbs then from an 18% to a 16% (if need be, mainly gilts and really lean raw barrows) at about 180 to 200 lbs.
Be careful if you do decide to start adding a protein top dress not to go too fast as you can burn up their guts and ulcerate them.

Hope all this helps and best of Luck. Mark

shirlie · Post by **shirlie** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 4:59 pm

SpotShowDad wrote:Good Luck and welcome to the world of feeding show pigs on a budget. The most economical way we have found to feed show pigs on a quality feed is a grind and mix formulated feed. A supplement or base mix that you mix with corn and soybean meal. All most all of the feed companies have something in this regard. Some more popular than others. We personally use the showrite show pig 10.0 base and have pretty good success.

The one problem I see with the program you describe was probably too fast of a drop in protein. Dropping these type of pigs to 16% protein too fast will sacrifice some muscle shape and expression. Normally we drop from a 20% to an 18% at about 75 lbs then from an 18% to a 16% (if need be, mainly gilts and really lean raw barrows) at about 180 to 200 lbs.
Be careful if you do decide to start adding a protein top dress not to go too fast as you can burn up their guts and ulcerate them.

Hope all this helps and best of Luck. Mark

Thanks for your help! I will mention the grind and mix to hubby and see if that will be a workable solution for us now. Also about the larger pigs, how would you ideally remedy their feed situation. Do you think any of the lost muscle shape and definition can be restored at this point? If we could switch now to a higher protein feed, would that also risk ulcerating them if we didn't switch over slowly. The smaller pigs are about to be switched over so I am thankful for your advice. Perhaps we can feed them a higher protein level feed at least.

SpotShowDad · Post by **SpotShowDad** » Thu Jun 12, 2008 9:27 pm

The grind and mix at market values($7 bu corn, $385/ton meal) our feed is costing about $24.00/cwt. One of the cheapest options I know of. This is our 16% ration, the 18% is probably a little more.

At this point I would not risk switching them(the bigger pigs) to a higher protein feed. I would look into some of the protein topdresses such as navigator(moormans), champion drive(honor), or show blast(show rite). Start them slow and work them up to 1/2 to 1 lb per head per day. If necessary the last 3 weeks one could use paylean if muscle pop was necessary. You might get enough pop out of the protein if you have enough time.

On the smaller pigs I would try to switch them onto an 18%.

Hope all goes well. Good Luck Mark

hampy622 · Post by **hampy622** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 5:56 am

I think with those pigs now is the time to try hitting them with some protein. I think you will be suprised with what happens. You might be able to get them to pop and grow a little more muscle. You can get good grind and mix feeds from a lot of mills its the cheapest way to go theses days. Im paying 11 dollars a bag for mine. But as the protein and quality goes up the more you have to pay. I think a 20% feed and something like honor championsdrive topdress might be all you need to bring your pigs back to life.

SpotShowDad · Post by **SpotShowDad** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:39 am

Again, as I stated in my second post I would be cautious about turning 130 lb pigs that have been on 16% for nearly 30 days back up in protein, especially to 20%. Way too big of a change and the likelyhood of burning up their guts is a risk I would not be willing to take. If these pigs are relatively lean and don't run the risk of getting too fat I think you can maintain the desired shape and expression with protein supplements and if necessary the paylean like I mentioned.

Good Luck shirlie Mark

hampy622 · Post by **hampy622** » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:59 pm

you are right about the risk mark but you can add fats and fillers to get that back. Might be smart to give just 20 percent for a week or two and then add the top dresses. I know your on a budget but powerfill would really help to.

shirlie · Post by **shirlie** » Fri Jun 27, 2008 7:31 am

hampy622 wrote:you are right about the risk mark but you can add fats and fillers to get that back. Might be smart to give just 20 percent for a week or two and then add the top dresses. I know your on a budget but powerfill would really help to.

I am not quite sure how I missed these last two posts. I visit the forum often. I had assumed the risk Mark was talking about in ulcerating them was actual stomach or intestinal ulceration. Is that correct? Hampy seems more worried about cover and fill, right? Just want to be sure. The piggies are still on a humble diet but have been eating 18 percent protien for awhile now. It has made a difference in them firming up. The jiggle and the near cellulite look they were getting has pretty much reversed. I hope they won't get ulcerated but so far, so good as far as I can tell. Btw, I haven't bought any supplements yet. I keep looking and researching and not being able to buy a lot, can't decide which will serve our purposes the best. We have to order in everything around here as feed seems to be about the only thing we can get without special order. Been so very, very busy in the rest of our lives and hoping to get the pigs fixed up right for the last 6 weeks or so. Hubby is disgusted with me and washed his hands of feeding the pigs. In his eyes, the 16 percent pig feed was perfectly fine and isn't wild about my questioning his judgement, lol. Oh well, in the end, I am sure we won't have done a good enough job to win (wouldn't anyhow likely) but I am hoping that we do well enough that hubby gets a sense of maybe the kids could win if we get even nicer pigs and feed them well. The guy we got our pigs from said going for the championship last year, 11 of the 18 blue ribbon pigs were from his farm. I think he sold somewhere around 20 of the around 200 pigs there so they are some of the nicer pigs. None of the 11 made Grand or Reserve but I thought they did well (I also know that the farmer was disgusted at how many he sold were cared for). Still these pigs weren't AI'ed, from champion stock or anything so maybe we could do better if we are willing to spend a little bit more and then feed them like show pigs should be fed. It is a learning adventure and hopefully this years pigs will stay well and make the show and place decently. Of course, the most important part is the sale which here if you aren't Grand or Reserve, means you have better had done a great job with buyer letters. Last year a kid in our club did very, very poorly all week but got $3.25 a lb for his pig at the sale. Our best was a second place pig and got $2.00 a lb. So in this case it isn't all about the place you get. Thanks for your kindness and patience while I am still learning and trying to sort it all out.