Paylean-Why do you think it is wrong?
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Showman2022
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The reason you aren't supposed to feed to breeding stock is different for each sex. You shouldn't feed to breeding boars because Paylean raises body temp so semen either don't get produced of are made at a lower level with more imperfections. On gilts, paylean ups the ratio of muscle to fat (the main reason to use paylean) and if gilts don't have enough fat throughout their bodies, they won't cycle. Supposedly, you can remedy this by putting them on a higher fat diet after feeding paylean, but as many know, sometimes they don't come back from that to be productive.
Personally, I disagree with feeding paylean to Breeding animals that are to be shown to be used for breeding purposes only. It doesn't give a true representation to the characteristics of the animal. To make an animal look it's best by feeding high quality feed with the correct ratio of nutritional elements is different than using paylean to artificially enhance.
Personally, I disagree with feeding paylean to Breeding animals that are to be shown to be used for breeding purposes only. It doesn't give a true representation to the characteristics of the animal. To make an animal look it's best by feeding high quality feed with the correct ratio of nutritional elements is different than using paylean to artificially enhance.
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Non-Sequitor
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I don't know the exact source anymore. You probably could do a search and come up with some articles that may direct you back to some research figures. Several years ago I compiled a bunch of research that was done on Paylean. Some of the earliest studies, when it was still being developed, were chocked full of information that never seemed to make it out into the public knowledge.
So, it seems to be common knowledge that you shouldn't feed it to breeding stock. It has been mentioned that it raises body temp. They change the regs on feeding rates. It doesn't work well with stress pigs. It doesn't actually gain muscle tissue, it fills the tissue with water....so what you see isn't what you get.....this is caused by nitrogen retention and thus increased water retention in the tissue to compensate for the higher levels of nitrogen. It binds to the ocular tissue in cattle and poultry. What's wrong with trying to produce a great hog by as natural means as possible. Shouldn't this be more the ideal. I don't want my kids eating paylean meat....research it out and I don't think anyone would want this. Just because it's approved/legal/everybodies doing it.........doesn't make it right.
And thus ends todays sermon.
And thus ends todays sermon.
If ya don't raise champion children, the livestock won't really matter.
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Non-Sequitor
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Thanks SSB have done a couple of searches haven't found it yet.
Huge, mtk lets not start throwing around unsubstantiated accusations, That thread has already been done.
Alterna, could you cite some supporting evidence for the water/nitrogen statements?
Huge, mtk lets not start throwing around unsubstantiated accusations, That thread has already been done.
Alterna, could you cite some supporting evidence for the water/nitrogen statements?
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, you are not entitled to your own facts"
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
The Nitrogen and water connection is in line with the evidence I've found, Paylean pretty much pumps muscle with water and the nitrogen is one of the ways it does it. Although this sounds bad, nitrogen is a key element in making muscle. So, paylean isn't just pumping the muscles with unattached nitrogen and water, it puts extra water and nitrogen in the muscle to make it more readily available to grow more muscle fibers.
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Non-Sequitor
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Well I think you may have misinterpreted some of the studies. I have been able to find reports of increased heart rate and cardiac output, but no mention of increased body temperature. I would be happy to read any studies you can point me towards.
The mode of action for ractopamine is to signal the muscle cell to produce more protien. Which would require the cell to consume more of the amino acids and water necessary to synthesize the protiens and would most likely increase the levels of waste nitrogen in the system especially on higher protien diets. Paylean is not just swelling the muscle but is actively promoting real muscle growth.
I have no proof, but I would speculate that perhaps the lower fertility of boars fed paylean may have more to do with damage caused by changes in blood pressure due to the increased heart rates, increased ammonia levels in the blood, or lower hormonal concentration due to the reduced fat content in the body.
The mode of action for ractopamine is to signal the muscle cell to produce more protien. Which would require the cell to consume more of the amino acids and water necessary to synthesize the protiens and would most likely increase the levels of waste nitrogen in the system especially on higher protien diets. Paylean is not just swelling the muscle but is actively promoting real muscle growth.
I have no proof, but I would speculate that perhaps the lower fertility of boars fed paylean may have more to do with damage caused by changes in blood pressure due to the increased heart rates, increased ammonia levels in the blood, or lower hormonal concentration due to the reduced fat content in the body.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, you are not entitled to your own facts"
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
Number of muscle fibers present is genetically based. This number is altered by break down and rebuild....like with body builders. Through muscle tear down, the body recognizes the need for increased muscle fiber numbers to meet the demand placed on the muscle. Through a tear down/rebuild cycle, you can actually increase the muscle fiber number.
I have not found any evidence to support the idea that racto increases fiber count. I have found evidence that it swells the fibers that are present. A complete compliment of amino acids gives the animal all of the potential building blocks to allow for maximum fiber development within its genetic code. Please site any evidence to the contrary, I would like to read it.
I have not found any evidence to support the idea that racto increases fiber count. I have found evidence that it swells the fibers that are present. A complete compliment of amino acids gives the animal all of the potential building blocks to allow for maximum fiber development within its genetic code. Please site any evidence to the contrary, I would like to read it.
If ya don't raise champion children, the livestock won't really matter.
check out the following site. no pro or con, just info.
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/j ... 53je08.htm
http://www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/j ... 53je08.htm
If ya don't raise champion children, the livestock won't really matter.
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Non-Sequitor
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Muscle fiber numbers are not increased however the muscle weight and protien content are increased.
Beta-Adrenergic receptor agonist modulation of skeletal muscle growth
D. H. Beermann1
Department of Animal Science, University of Nebraska, Lincoln 68583
Effects on Muscle Cellularity
The anabolic effects of βAR agonists on muscle include
muscle fiber hypertrophy, changes in muscle fiber
type frequency, and differential rates of muscle RNA,
DNA, and protein accretion. No evidence of muscle fiber
splitting or increase in fiber number has been reported.
Percentage increases in average fiber cross-sectional
area are similar to percentage increases in muscle
weight in lambs (Beermann et al., 1986; Kim et al.,
1987) and rats (Maltin et al., 1986), although some
changes in fiber type distribution have been observed.
In general, the increase in hypertrophy of type II fibers
accounts for the increase in muscle mass without any
quantitative change in muscle length. Similar changes
have been observed in pigs fed 20 ppm ractopamine
(Aalhus et al., 1992). No in vivo increase in myotube or
muscle fiber number has been reported in βAR agonisttreated
animals. Lack of response in very young nursing
lambs (Williams, 1989) and other species suggests that
either muscle fibers lack sufficient βAR number or function
to respond early in life or that fractional growth
rate in very young muscle fibers is at the maximum.
Results of temporal studies show that 25% increases
in RNA concentration and 85% increase in total mass
of RNA occurred in parallel with 30% increases in the
total weight and protein content of hind limb muscles
in lambs fed 10 ppm cimaterol for 3 wk (O?Connor et
al., 1991b). During this same time intervalDNAconcentration
was reduced by 42% and total DNA content of
the same muscles was unchanged. After 6 wk of treatment,
differences in RNA concentration and content
disappeared, but muscle weight and protein content
remained 25% higher in treated lamb muscle. DNA
concentration remained 25% less. These results suggest
that stimulation of satellite cell proliferation and incorporation
into growing muscle fibers is not an essential
component of fiber hypertrophy. Although ractopamine
has been shown to elicit a 30% increase in proliferation
rate, and in protein andDNAconcentrations in cultured
mouse C2C12 myoblasts (Shappell et al., 2000), this in
vitro effect is lost after successive passages of the cells,
and ractopamine failed to increase DNA or protein in
myotubes derived from the C2C12 cells. Grant et al.
(1990) observed an increase in proliferation, but not
fusion, of chick breast muscle satellite cells incubated
with ractopamine. These results were confirmed in
studies using turkey satellite cells (McFarland et al.,
1995; Shappell et al., 2000) and porcine satellite cells
(Cook et al., 1995). Shappell et al. (2000) concluded
?that in turkeys, ractopamine may not work directly
through the β-adrenergic receptor of muscle cells (and
c-AMP) to stimulate changes in muscle carcass traits,
but possibly through extramuscular effects, such as increased
blood flow and amino acid uptake by muscles.?
In summary, in vitro studies fail to provide substantial
evidence in support of βAR-mediated stimulation of satellite
cells as a means by which muscle hypertrophy is
initiated by feeding βAR agonists in growing animals.
Beta-Adrenergic receptor agonist modulation of skeletal muscle growth
D. H. Beermann1
Department of Animal Science, University of Nebraska, Lincoln 68583
Effects on Muscle Cellularity
The anabolic effects of βAR agonists on muscle include
muscle fiber hypertrophy, changes in muscle fiber
type frequency, and differential rates of muscle RNA,
DNA, and protein accretion. No evidence of muscle fiber
splitting or increase in fiber number has been reported.
Percentage increases in average fiber cross-sectional
area are similar to percentage increases in muscle
weight in lambs (Beermann et al., 1986; Kim et al.,
1987) and rats (Maltin et al., 1986), although some
changes in fiber type distribution have been observed.
In general, the increase in hypertrophy of type II fibers
accounts for the increase in muscle mass without any
quantitative change in muscle length. Similar changes
have been observed in pigs fed 20 ppm ractopamine
(Aalhus et al., 1992). No in vivo increase in myotube or
muscle fiber number has been reported in βAR agonisttreated
animals. Lack of response in very young nursing
lambs (Williams, 1989) and other species suggests that
either muscle fibers lack sufficient βAR number or function
to respond early in life or that fractional growth
rate in very young muscle fibers is at the maximum.
Results of temporal studies show that 25% increases
in RNA concentration and 85% increase in total mass
of RNA occurred in parallel with 30% increases in the
total weight and protein content of hind limb muscles
in lambs fed 10 ppm cimaterol for 3 wk (O?Connor et
al., 1991b). During this same time intervalDNAconcentration
was reduced by 42% and total DNA content of
the same muscles was unchanged. After 6 wk of treatment,
differences in RNA concentration and content
disappeared, but muscle weight and protein content
remained 25% higher in treated lamb muscle. DNA
concentration remained 25% less. These results suggest
that stimulation of satellite cell proliferation and incorporation
into growing muscle fibers is not an essential
component of fiber hypertrophy. Although ractopamine
has been shown to elicit a 30% increase in proliferation
rate, and in protein andDNAconcentrations in cultured
mouse C2C12 myoblasts (Shappell et al., 2000), this in
vitro effect is lost after successive passages of the cells,
and ractopamine failed to increase DNA or protein in
myotubes derived from the C2C12 cells. Grant et al.
(1990) observed an increase in proliferation, but not
fusion, of chick breast muscle satellite cells incubated
with ractopamine. These results were confirmed in
studies using turkey satellite cells (McFarland et al.,
1995; Shappell et al., 2000) and porcine satellite cells
(Cook et al., 1995). Shappell et al. (2000) concluded
?that in turkeys, ractopamine may not work directly
through the β-adrenergic receptor of muscle cells (and
c-AMP) to stimulate changes in muscle carcass traits,
but possibly through extramuscular effects, such as increased
blood flow and amino acid uptake by muscles.?
In summary, in vitro studies fail to provide substantial
evidence in support of βAR-mediated stimulation of satellite
cells as a means by which muscle hypertrophy is
initiated by feeding βAR agonists in growing animals.
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, you are not entitled to your own facts"
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
-
Non-Sequitor
- Showpig Specialist
- Posts: 148
- Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 7:00 pm
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Yes the inchem document is very good I have read it.
The site for the University of Nebraska Paper.
http://www.asas.org/symposia/vol80/jas1708.pdf
The site for the University of Nebraska Paper.
http://www.asas.org/symposia/vol80/jas1708.pdf
"Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. However, you are not entitled to your own facts"
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
Rep. Roy Blunt Mo.
Please contact your veterinarian before acting upon any animal drug or health advice.
Reproductive problems stem from two areas ... (my opinion)
#1. Racto is similar in function to wellbutirol/wellbuterin....which is known for causing a diminished libido and some levels of erectile disfunction. Anyone trying to quit smoking with the (first class) of these type drugs can attest to the sexual side-effects.
#2. Because of the greater rate of fat metabolism, there should be an overall decrease in reserve fat levels. Low fat reserves or high fat reserves often cause reproductive difficulties.
Most of the studies that I have read indicate return to normal reproductive status after a withdrawl period, which varies.
#1. Racto is similar in function to wellbutirol/wellbuterin....which is known for causing a diminished libido and some levels of erectile disfunction. Anyone trying to quit smoking with the (first class) of these type drugs can attest to the sexual side-effects.
#2. Because of the greater rate of fat metabolism, there should be an overall decrease in reserve fat levels. Low fat reserves or high fat reserves often cause reproductive difficulties.
Most of the studies that I have read indicate return to normal reproductive status after a withdrawl period, which varies.
If ya don't raise champion children, the livestock won't really matter.